Paul:

Well, my guest today can probably best be described as a force when she's in the room. You know, she is a successful voice actor. She helps people with branding and LinkedIn and networking, and most impressively, she is what I call a moonshot taker. We'll talk more about that in a little while. Please welcome to the podcast, my dear friend and work wife naked, Jen Greenfield.

Jen:

You're so sweet. Thank you, Paul, for having me. I'm really excited to join you today.

Paul:

Well, I've been looking forward to this one for a long time because we've known each other now coming up on two years. It was at VO Atlanta where I heard this voice from next to me at the lunch table say, you look like Ben Folds.

Jen:

At the time you did, you had benfold spectacles. You were sporting this casual zip up hoodie there, you know?

Paul:

Does that help? It

Jen:

Does. You were missing the keyboard. You are not serenading me, but No, no. I don't know. I can't tell you. It just hit me. I was like, wow, you look like Ben Folds, and then you got sucked into my web. I'm sorry my friend. I

Paul:

Did, and it's one of the best things that's ever happened to me, both personally and professionally. So it'll be two years ago, this VO Atlanta we met at lunch. I can only describe that meeting as our little interaction over Ben Folds, and then you held court over nine other people at the lunch table, and I thought, man, this woman, she's going to do something somewhere. I'm not sure what yet, or to whom, but she's going to do something somewhere. And we've been fast friends ever since. Much to my joy. Absolutely. So lots I want to talk about today. First of all, I just saw the other day on social media, I think you just celebrated your 10th year in the business. Talk to me about that.

Jen:

I have not been in the business for 10 years, Paul.

Paul:

Okay, so maybe I should check my coffee. Am I drinking?

Jen:

No.

Paul:

What did I see?

Jen:

You saw that 10 years ago. I auditioned for the Voice in Yes, in Philly. So I am the voice actor you love and you hate. And I'll tell you why. Because I grew up, I was a cast in my first opera at seven. I went to college on a full ride musical theater scholarship I have done on-camera work. I absolutely was born an entertainer. I love choreography, I love singing, and I am a pandemic baby. We

Paul:

All are right at this point.

Jen:

Well, when it hit, I knew I had to pivot. I actually did an interview with Dave Fanno from Lori Allen's guest room, by the way, in California several months ago. And when I told him this, he went, wow, wow, wow. Wait, wait, what? Yes, I have been in this business less than five years, and that shocks people. But I think one of the things you're going to touch on is how I approach the industry and how I approach work, which definitely I think does make me a little unique. Not that I'm the only person doing it, but to be at the point I'm at in a matter of years is a little bit different than other people's journeys.

Paul:

I think that's true. I also think that you and I share roughly what I'll call a go-getter mindset, right? For sure. We're not sitting back waiting for the inbox to fill up. We're not waiting for agents to knock on our door. We are going out and hustling. That's right. And not that you and I are the only ones doing that by far, of course.

Jen:

Exactly.

Paul:

But there are two camps, right? There are folks that sit back and wait for stuff to happen. And then there are folks, and I don't know anybody that embodies this more than you folks that just go get it. I described you earlier as a moonshot taker, talk about the voice audition that kind of set the stage, right?

Jen:

Yeah. Even in my post 10 years ago, talk about setting the stage for really all entrepreneurial endeavors I take on. If you never try, you fail. I mean, you have failed. It's

Paul:

The old Michael Jordan quote, you're going to miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take.

Jen:

Exactly. And even in my post from 10 years ago, I said, if you don't try, you fail. And if you try, you have a 50 50 chance of yes. So even 10 years ago, I'm a wife, a mom, at the time I had two little ones. And even my amazing husband who has to be to survive

Paul:

With that guy,

Jen:

He said, and every time I audition for something, he said, why can't it be you? I don't question that, but that's his approach too, is it has to be someone. Why not you? And so having that mentality, another thing that you and I both do, and I want to also say, I just enjoy your content so much, and I think that's one of the things that really has connected us is we don't have to agree on every single aspect of a topic, but we are really in the same lane when it comes to a lot of things about hustle culture, about marketing, about growing your business. So anyway, so one of the things that we do agree on is niching down, and I speak on this all the time, to have an aspiration, a goal, an objective to be something like I want to voice for Disney. Good Lord Almighty, that is absolutely the biggest, most broad thing you can aspire for. And although great, there's no path, there's no map to get you to this big thing,

Paul:

Just the destination. That's it. That's

Jen:

It. So when you talk about these moonshot things, I'm being really specific, really specific. So for example, most recently, Hillary Farr, who has been the host or co-host of a show on HGTV called Love It or List It. She's retiring from that show and moving on,

Paul:

Coincidentally, by the way, narrated by Tina Morocco.

Jen:

Exactly. Which is a wonderful coincidence to have and also to have a wonderful relationship with her. Anyway, to the point for years, I'm like, I need to host an HGTV show. I want to have my own HGTV show that's saying I want to be on Disney. I mean, it's just this big huge thing. Well,

Paul:

Doesn't have any form to it. It

Jen:

Has no form. So when Hillary leaves, I'm like, okay, no. Now what I want to do is I want to be the host of this show and I'm going to talk to this executive producer and I'm going to talk Paul talking to people. That is the other thing you talk about is relationship building. And I am such a gigantic advocate of it. Have the dream, have the goal, the objective, niche it down, and then find out who can help you make it happen.

Paul:

This is not to get off topic

Jen:

Thing. Yeah, go ahead.

Paul:

Because at that point, whether or not you achieve the goal, whether or not you get the HGTV show, you still now have those relationships and that's worth it's weight and gold.

Jen:

So I'll give you another example. And people just, and even when I do my, I speak at different conferences, different voiceover conferences, and I'll talk about LinkedIn, I'll talk about networking. I talk about relationship building. And one of the things that I always do is I show proof. I'll screenshot messages. One thing to kind of give a general, you should try this. Now I'm going to show you, this is what I said, this is what I did. And guess what? I got to reply. So most recently, I had another moonshot goal that I was going for, and again, really niched it down and I decided I didn't tell anybody, but now everybody will know that I wanted to be the promo voice for Taylor Tomlinson on her new show after midnight.

Paul:

Now I did know that, but it's because you have a text. You and I. Okay,

Jen:

Okay. That's right. Maybe I did tell you. Well, now it was

Paul:

Private.

Jen:

But all that to say, I have done promo coaching. I have worked with some fantastic coaches, and guess what? I talked to 'em. I said, what do you think? And they were like, I love it. She's one of the first female late night hosts having, I found out I did my research, the head writer, also female. So I'm thinking not just because it's me, but I'm like, we need a female promo. Let's keep the girl power momentum going, my friend.

Paul:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jen:

So what did I do? I start reaching out to, I start doing my research reading articles. Who's producing the show? Who's the writer, who's all the things? So then I found the CMO of CBS, the chief marketing officer, and I emailed him and I said, Hey, I want to make some promo magic. And I went ahead and created promo samples, specifically a little short demo. There was three spots of me doing Taylor Tomlinson's promo.

Paul:

Brilliant.

Jen:

Yeah. So I built it. I also included my commercial and animation demo because I know when they do inner narration stuff, they like to do fun clips. Anyway, I reach out. I'm very specific about, Hey, everything I already said, here's some, I even put together some promo samples for your convenience. And guess what? He wrote me back.

Paul:

Of course he did.

Jen:

And he said, he said, I'm actually not the decision maker on this, but I have everything that you've sent me and I will forward it to our creative department.

Paul:

Boom.

Jen:

He can be lying through his teeth. I don't care.

Paul:

Here's why. I think he's really not. Number one. Number one, you've shown yourself to be a professional in the business and not just some Jane average off the street. Number two, you've shown, you've done your research and your homework, you've put the promo spots together, you showed up prepared with a solution, not just a beg, right? Not just a, Hey, wouldn't it be great if this stranger that you've never met before if you just helped him, you showed up with some preparation and that makes all the difference in the world.

Jen:

And that's the key. And here's why I also know that, and you'll giggle why I know it wasn't a flute because I emailed them back. I gave it a minute. I said, you know what? Also, by the way, 180 here, I also host a podcast that for voice actor. I said, and we're always talking about marketing. If you'd ever like to join us, let me know. Guess what? He emailed me back. No kidding. Hey, not a huge podcast person, but thank you so much for thinking of me. And here we are. And that's one of the things. So the moonshot thing, this is the other part that I talk about, is to remember when people get, I'm going to use the word scared, apprehensive, maybe unsure. Should I email, should I call, should I send the dmm? Is to remember that it is just another human on the other end of the line,

Paul:

Full stop every time, every single time. No. And they have a name. They

Jen:

Have a name, and they probably have a family. And the thing to remember is too do that, understanding that what you don't like. So you wouldn't do that to them. And again, if you never ask the answer's, always no. But be cool, be funny. Just be specific. Have purpose in reaching out to them. But just remember, they are no better than you. Exactly. They might be smarter than you. They might make more money than you. But that's the other thing I say is no one is better than me. And so

Paul:

Now the thing that I want to kind of suss out of that too is when you asked about the podcast, you asked without putting him on the spot, right? You actually asked, without asking, you said, Hey, I'm going to leave this open-ended. If you'd like to be a guest, let me know. That puts the ball in the control in his court. And you gave him away a polite out is what you gave him, right? For sure. And I think there's, if we had just gloss past that, and a lot of people might not have picked up on that, have you heard, I got to find out. Have you heard anything from the creative department at CBS yet?

Jen:

No, but I'm, I'm not upset though, Paul, because good things are happening. Things change all the time, and they can change like that. Now I'll tell you, I went on, I even

Paul:

Reached out, and you don't know what the timeline is either. No,

Jen:

Thank you. You've absolutely led me to my next point, which is I also reached out to a friend of ours, mark Rider. I said, mark, I said, I want to know what I just ducks in a row. Because again, I put myself out there. I ask the question, I show who I am, here's what I sound like. And at any point a buyer can call you and go, oh yeah, we got a thing now. Right? So I asked him, I said, tell me what am I not thinking of when CBS calls me, not if, when CS calls me, of course, and says, Hey, we want you. And one of the things he said was, you've got to be prepared to say you are available at a moment's notice. And to me,

Paul:

Absolutely, that's the nature of network promo.

Jen:

It's, and to take it a step further, and this is for anyone who's considering, well, really any voiceover, whether you get with an agent when you start leveling up your game, is having a conversation with your family. And a lot, I genuinely think people forget this point because absolutely. If you are on the hook, I can't make dinner, you're going to have to cover dinner, babe. Or Hey kids, I got to get in the studio. You're going to have to work on your homework on your own. Or Hey, can you cover and pick up the kids from school? I have to get to this because the minute you tell the buyer, oh, sorry, I, I'm at the thing, or I'm in the car, that's not

Paul:

Good.

Yeah, I mean if you're doing network promo, you still have to live, but you have to live within about 15 minutes of your house's. Yeah. Donovan Corn Eats was the first one that hit me to that. Those uncomfortable, sometimes conversations with family not only happen around, Hey, can you cover this while I've got to do a job in my world, working with folks that are trying to build, go from level A to level B to level C, a lot of times they have been in this business for quite a while and they're getting pushback from the spouse. And what I tell them oftentimes is you've got to have what may help is an uncomfortable conversation where you say something along the lines of, look, building a career in a business here means a lot to me, and I know that it's taking some of my time away from family. I need help. I'm not going to be able to do this by myself in a bubble. We're going to need to work together as a team. Here's what I need and what can I give you to help you, help all of us help me and help the whole family? That's a tough, uncomfortable conversation to have. But I feel like it's a pressure release, right? Much it would be in the network with the network promo conversation. So I just want to bring it up those uncomfortable conversations with family because our family is our team, right?

Jen:

Well, and certainly for moms, I can't, absolutely.

Paul:

Even more so for moms.

Jen:

Yeah, I'm in a mom vo Facebook group. I'm not giving anything away there, but there are like, Hey, I need my husband to do the, how do I have that conversation? Especially for moms who historically handle kids and housework and cooking and cleaning and those things. And when you're like, I got to be in the studio for a few hours, and those things don't get done. So I think this was a really good thing. I don't hear this talked about enough, so I'm glad we ventured down this path.

Paul:

And I think the other big conversation in that vein, Jen, is when we're freelancers, especially when we have a spouse or a partner who has a corporate job, goes into an office, leaves the home every day, there's this unwritten assumption that, oh, my partner's home and they have free time. They can let the dog out, run the groceries, head to the bank, get the dry cleaning. I think the conversation has to be, no politely, this is my business too, and I need to protect that time. Not that I'm unwilling to do the occasional errand when it's an emergency, when there's really no other option, but it's like I'm not the errand boy or errand girl of the house just because I work from home.

Jen:

That's right. And I think this goes back to my dear, wonderful, sweet darling husband who has the patience of a saint. He's understood from the, well one, we're a military family. He's since retired, but that was the other part is we've lived all over the world. I grew up in the Army and married Air Force, and when we move every two to three years, most places they don't even want to hire you when they know you are the spouse of someone in the military, they're like, by the time we get you trained, you're PCSing. Anyway, so nicely, we're not interested. So ever since he and I have been married, I have always, when we show up somewhere, I start teaching a dance class, I start teaching fitness. I had a sewing business for seven years. I provided baby products for boutiques all over the United States, things I could do from home with kids napping or potty training and all the things. So he's, historically, that's kind of just the understanding we've had. But when you are a serial entrepreneur, that's just kind of who you are. You're like, yeah, I get it. But when you're freelance, and I love that word that you used, because I think it's even different than entrepreneur in the regard that you've got to find the work and you have to sell. You are your product.

But yeah, understanding that there's so much flexibility in that. And so I'm very, very lucky that he gets it, and we've just kind of already had that relationship. So

Paul:

Anyway, well, as far as I know, he's completely fictional because I've never met him.

Jen:

He's like, Dolly Parton's husband. I know

Paul:

Until I shake the man's hand. I'm going to say he's a fictional character, but he is definitely husband of the year that much. I do know I introduced you as naked Jen, and for those maybe watching Cliffs, maybe watching this video, they're going to understand why. Tell us about how that got started. And here's a question. Is it part of your branding now?

Jen:

I love this question. So story, actually, it is not that amazing

Paul:

And it won't be surprising for anybody watching

Jen:

Now. I was doing an advanced animation course with Laurie Allen and Susan Paleo and outside. We live in Scottsdale, so I've got a little pool and a little hot tub. And so it was an evening class on Zoom, and I had hopped in the pool just chill before the class started. And when I came in, when you're damp, you're not peeling pants on, right? Right. Well, mindlessly, I just went and grabbed a strapless sundress, just something you'd put on a coverup over your swim. And I just pulled it on and as soon as I sat down, Lori said, alright, guys, we're going to get started and naked. Jen is going to read first. And it was done.

Paul:

There we go. It was

Jen:

Done. The hashtag was made. And she and I to this day do not have a correspondence where it's hashtag, I'm not naked right now. Not naked, Lori. Hey, naked are you partly, and it just turned into a thing. But I love that you brought up the branding part because as you know, and I don't think this, it's a little ego. I'm a multifaceted creative. I do lots and lots of different things. Branding for me is I love branding first of all, but the naked gen part is not part of my identity, and I don't think it's part of my branding. I read somewhere branding is what people say about you when you leave the room.

Paul:

And as far as I know, you've never left the room. And no one has ever said to me, was she

Jen:

Naked? Was she naked? Thank you. So that's perfect. So you're absolutely sending me down the right path.

Paul:

Then again, I haven't met Andy yet, so well,

Jen:

Yeah, okay, yeah, there you go. About, so what people say about you when you leave the room. And so when people talk about you shouldn't do your own branding, well, I agree with that, but what I tell people is what people say about you when you leave the room. Yes. But you get to set the tone while you're in the room. And so although I don't say, Hey, don't specifically do your own branding, you can guide people. So the naked gen part, guess what? It's silly.

Paul:

It's silly.

Jen:

Absolutely. It's my joke to tell I never am ashamed or like, oh my gosh, people call me naked. I literally, first of all, I don't care. But second of all, it is part to a degree of my branding in that my personality is fun. It's silly. And again, I know I'm not actually naked. My children know that people call me naked, Jen. Again, I started them early understanding that I will embarrass them

Paul:

As any good parent should.

Jen:

Right? But anyway, so to your point, no, the joke is part of my branding, identifying as part of me being fun and just living my life freely. And you said something earlier that I want to circle back to that one of the things people have said about me is they say you're fearless.

Paul:

Absolutely.

Jen:

Well, to a degree, but I like to say confident and the difference, meaning, I mean, you do have fears, you do have apprehensions, and I think they are innate. They are something just every human should have. You'd be a little weird if you weren't scared of something, but it's just owning who you are. It's hard for a lot of people to get to that place to go, you know what? This is how I was built. This is what I look like. Sometimes I'm fluffier. That's the word I like to use. Sometimes I'm more toned, but you know what? I own it and this is who I am. And I think so many more people would get to that place of confidence with their business, with their marketing, with their email correspondence. If you get to a place of going, I know who I am and I know what I want. That's when the moonshot things happen

Paul:

And the fortitude to say, you know what? No matter what, I'm still going to be me. Right? Love it. No matter what. Look, and I think a lot of people, I think we have this sort of implied mindset that nothing is ever supposed to go wrong, and when it does, it's a bad thing. You have not made your last mistake, nor have I, I'm going to make 20 before I get out of this room after the podcast. I

Jen:

Know.

Paul:

So let's put that aside. And confidence to me is saying to yourself, I know I'm going to make mistakes. I know bad stuff is going to happen, but I will handle it. I have the confidence in myself that will, no matter what comes up, I'm going to handle it. And here's your indicator. You've been around this long, right? You're not dead yet, so chances are you're doing a thing or two and you're going to be able to handle whatever comes up moving forward. I want to talk a little bit about your story and how you got started in this business. You said it's been less than five years, which to me is kind of mind boggling because I want to use that as an entree into, you mentioned hustle culture, and I want to talk about that a little bit too, but you get started in voiceover.

Jen:

So yeah, so again, had a very strong background in performance entertainment. I went to college, did musical theater, was in all the operas. So I've done the improv, I've done the acting classes. I was a choreographer, and I also, like I said, taught fitness. I did that for many, many years. So very comfortable talking, very comfortable memorizing lines and entertaining people. That's just what I love. Whenever I cover a song, it's just to bring out an emotion. So I had the skill, so when the pandemic, well, just before the pandemic had happened, I had just finished a show we were living in, where were we living? Connecticut, I think we were living in Connecticut at the time. So lots of musicals, cabaret shows and things up there. And I was like, I've got to pivot. How many times have we heard that word? And so I jumped in, I started doing my research.

That's one of the things I do, and I think that's what helps me a lot too, which I've already mentioned it before. Who do I need to talk to? What information do I need? I really do my research. And so yeah, I started researching it, voiceover and researched equipment. Hadn't joined. I love your videos. I had not joined a Facebook group yet, and so I hadn't gone there. I also wasn't, believe it or not, I wasn't super duper active on social media several years ago. So yeah, I mean, again, I'm a unique story, but Paul, I signed on, it was one of the pay to plays and don't ask me, which, because I've really tried. I don't remember. I had my first job in two weeks and I had my first directed session two weeks after that. Wow. That's pretty crazy. I started in October and my first directed session was in November, and it's just gone from there.

Then what is, okay, I got my feet wet now. It was moving into coaching now. It was really more of the fundamentals that we've all talked about. We talk about it in vo booth, besties. You talk about it. I mean, yeah, I'm a feet first person, but not everybody is like that. And I also don't encourage that because not everyone is me. And if you come in super shaky, the mic picks that up. Absolutely. So I jumped in, but I had the back. That's the other thing, Paul, I had the acting background. I understood the nuance of a script. I understood the emotion. I understood who's my audience. So I kind of just feel more like coming into voiceover was just that other quiver, that other creative quiver I was putting in there, because again, I sing, I dance on camera, on stage. I was already doing those things. People who come from a very corporate job for example, wouldn't necessarily have all of that background to support suddenly going, all right, I'm going to transition into this. Absolutely. I think that definitely was on my side.

Paul:

Yeah, you had the skills built. All you had to do was refine 'em for voiceover, and that's a big deal. A lot of time building the skill when most people are starting from scratch. Right?

Jen:

For sure.

Paul:

So we got started a few years ago. Do you remember what it was that you went? Huh? Voiceover?

Jen:

No,

Paul:

No,

Jen:

No.

Paul:

Some people do. Some people

Jen:

They have the moment. No, I mean I saw it as another, I'm a creative capital C, full stop. When people are like, what are your pronouns? I'm like, creative. But it was just another opportunity to grow me, grow me creatively, grow me as a person. It wasn't that I was watching cartoons with my kids. I wish I had a better story to say, oh yeah, I was watching cartoons with my kids and heard this voice, and I was like, I want to do that. It wasn't that. I love a challenge and voiceover my friend. It is a challenge. Yes,

Paul:

It's anyone who

Jen:

Says otherwise. Yes,

No, it is a challenge. So although I went in confident Feet first, booked my first couple jobs pretty quick, that's like you said, that's when you start refining. I had coached with, I was like, well, because I have a lot more energy and I love to be silly and do the different character things, that's when you start. Yeah. You go, okay, let's go over here. Who do I talk to? Mark Grow, Laurie Allen, working with people more in the character and animation field, and then you start Tina Morasco and you start learning. I've coached with Richard Redfield and David Alden, who I just enjoy them tremendously for promo and trailer work and Jeff Howell. So as you get going, then you kind of start figuring out the nuance, the niche, where do I fit? Where am I comfortable, and where do I book?

Paul:

Right. Speaking of where I fit, you've described yourself a couple of times as a creative freelancer. When I spoke in Dallas last year about future proofing your business, one of the things that I said was one of the points that I made was, I think it behooves voice actors and really any freelance creative in a given field as we move forward here, to see yourself more as a creative freelancer who maybe primarily does voiceover or graphic design, you name it, videography, whatever. But that you also bring your other skills to bear because oftentimes multiple streams of income is not a bad. Talk about that and how that's come to bear in your life.

Jen:

Love it, love it. And I remember hearing you talk and I was just applauding so loudly in my mind because again, as someone who came in later and has, again, a multifaceted background, I do not believe you can be OneNote anymore. There are the vets, the veteran voice actors. We love them, we respect them and we hear their stories. But the ones that are like, yeah, I've got an agent. I've never even edited my audio before because I always, I just send it off. Or I've always had an agent. And so the work always came to me. I've not done a pay to play. I agree with you. I do not think the days of I just walk into a booth, say a 32nd script and walk out and magic happens, works anymore. So to your point, I am a writer. I produce videos. I'm sure you saw my post.

I just produced two radio spots. Many of these things are not cosmic things. They are not overly challenging. But back to the confidence, back to the hustle culture, if a client comes to me and is like, I want to do a spot. If I can say to them, I can help you write it, or I can help you tweak your script, I'll voice it. And if you're wanting some simple music beds or just a little bit of sound effects or something to go with it, great. And guess what? They're going to pay you more to do that. And if you are confident and capable, I got to tell you, I've heard a lot of garbage on all different mediums.

Paul:

I've heard garbage on network tv. Yes.

Jen:

And again, but why not? That'd be my other question to folks. Why

Paul:

Not? Why not? If you have the skill, why not use it?

Jen:

That's just it. And guess what? You get to own all of it. And I think there's some pride in that. And also I'm a person to, this is one of the things that several people have said to me that stands out as part of being a leader is I don't claim to know everything, but I'll go find out if I can't. And if I can't find it, I'll find the person who can. Exactly. So to your point, when we talk, because again, I talk about always talking about networking and relationships just like you. Maybe I'm just like, I don't have the brain bites, or maybe I truly do not have the skill, but guess what? Build relationships. Connect with people not only who hire you. This is a quote by Jen Greenfield. Connect with people who can help you.

Paul:

Absolutely.

Jen:

Why not build a team? Why not? You don't have to become a full on production company, but why not have that in your back pocket? Hey, I know I can write and read your script. I'm going to call Roy. He'll lay some tracks, master it, throw him some money. I mean, the client doesn't know. And what an opportunity, and it doesn't have to be someone even like Uncle Roy who we love, but it could be a local studio. How wonderful is that?

Paul:

And conversely, it could be a video producer in Brazil.

Jen:

Exactly.

Paul:

Yeah. So

Jen:

When we talk about hustle culture, when we talk, learn something new. If you don't know it, or just again, try, why not? If you can make more money, and how many times do we say in the industry under promise, over deliver? If they just came to you for the one thing, can you say, Hey, I can also go ahead and do this for you too. What you would look like a rockstar.

Paul:

Absolutely. The more things that you can do, especially, and we talked about this in Dallas too, especially if for example, if you're a voice actor, if they're voiceover adjacent, can you edit and produce? Can you do videography or at least edit picture to sound, right? Can you write, like you said, the things that are adjacent to your core competency? If you can develop adequate competency around those skills, then now as you said before, you become a one-stop shop

Jen:

And you talk about time management, I think there's a misconception for newer talent that I'm in the booth eight hours a day. Yeah, you're not. No, you're

Paul:

Not. No, no, you're

Jen:

Not. You're not. And you probably shouldn't be if you are, it just sounds a little unhealthy. I mean, you may book a job or have some auditions and it takes you 20 minutes. It could take you maybe a few hours. Audiobook, narrators, I give you a little grace, but for the most part, it's how you prioritize your time. This is the same thing when people say, I don't have time to post on social media or Yeah. Or I don't have time to learn a new skill.

Paul:

Yeah, you do. Really. Here's what you currently have time for. Game of Thrones, candy Crush, Wordle, you've got time for all that garbage. Then you have time to market your business, grow your skillset, whatever it might be. Do things to change your life,

Jen:

Right? And the hustle part, I also really emphasize this a lot. Hustle culture has nothing to do with me trying to do what you do. Me trying to catch up to you. Me, hustle is you against you. Hustle is, can I do a little bit better than I did last year? Hustle is, did I do a little bit more than I did yesterday? Hustle is just improving you. When I think hustle, I visually, I picture a mall walker, just like arms shaking, booty swaying, moving through that mall. So be that for you. So get find that energy, eat right, move, be hydrated, and think of whatever that visual is for you to be like, alright, let's do this. What's your, let's do this motivation. That's hustle. That's

Paul:

It. And get your sleep. And I think when we think, especially corporately of hustle culture, it's being in at 6:00 AM and leaving the office at 11:00 PM Right? That's not hustle. That's just busy. That's just burnout. Yeah, burnout. Exactly. And you cannot hustle. You cannot take care of those around you. You cannot do any of that without first taking care of yourself. Love it. And when you talk about the physical end of it, get your sleep, get your hydration, make sure your diet is balanced. Make sure you eat well and move your body so that, look folks, this is a physical instrument, right? This voice that we all use to make a living. If you don't take care of the vessel that carts this thing around, you don't stand much of a chance

Jen:

Right? Now, I'm not saying

Paul:

You have says the guy who's been sick for 47 days.

Jen:

Now, I'm not saying you have to try crazy yoga challenges like I do.

Paul:

For a while there, I thought we were going to call you pretzel Jen Greenfield.

Jen:

Oh my gosh. I have so many Jen nicknames, but oh my gosh. But no, I completely agree with you. So part of being freelance is, and we've talked about this also looking around where you are. We talked earlier about Moonshot. We talked about, oh, I want to do this really, really wild, big thing. But there is something to be said for look around you. How can you support businesses in your community? Can you provide voice? We're coming into a political season. Are there constituents around you that you can reach out? Tom, a brainstorm kind of person. Where can I go? What can I do? You know what? Your audience can't see this. Oh, I don't have it in here. I went to Barnes and Noble with the kiddos, and there's a section that has local periodicals and there was one called, I'm Giving It Away guys. It was called Phoenix Dining or something like that. Paul Schmidt. This was 200 pages of advertising. If you don't think I'm not going to contact every single person in this, this was free. I didn't have to even Google anything. I didn't have to go do lead generation. I didn't have to hire anybody. You know what I did? I spent $6 on a stacked magazine chock full of people paying money.

Paul:

Quick math. That's 3 cents a lead, right? 200 leads for six bucks. And listen,

Jen:

You're welcome listeners. You are welcome. I'm just telling you, there is inspiration in so many places. The thing that I find, and you said this right at the beginning, and this is a general statement, friends, people don't do the work. They don't do the work they don't want to try. People will pay hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars for leads that a whole bunch of other voice actors got. You are unique in where you live. Take advantage of it. You are unique in who take advantage of it. I'll give you a great example. One of the best jobs I got, not the highest paying, right? Let's differentiate, was a referral from a friend I went to high school with and it was to do the vo. I am do all the phone messaging for Rosewood Hotel Group. And if you don't know them, they are one of the highest end international hotel chains in the world. I mean, there you go. Hong Kong. And this was because she said, Hey Jen, can you do the messaging? I'll just connect you with them. And it was another example of What's your price? We went back and forth and I told David Tobin what I had. I said, what was the GVA rate guide for voice messaging? His eyes went, you charged what? And he was like, that's pretty darn good.

Paul:

Wow. Nice.

Jen:

And now I'm in, because they just opened a new hotel and they were like, Hey Jen, we need a new for this. And I just sent it to 'em, charged 'em a studio fee. Done. But you never know where the leads can come from. And although we want to think big guys, stack 'em up, look around you. Who do you have relationships with?

Paul:

You said something that really resonates with me, and that is most people won't or don't want to do the work. I know why I think that is. Why do you think it is?

Jen:

They're scared

Paul:

Of

Jen:

Putting themselves out there? Dunno what

Paul:

To say and

Jen:

Don't know what to say. I don't know what to say. What do you think? I don't know. I don't know where we're going with this.

Paul:

Well, putting themselves out there because they're afraid. The root fear, I think is fear of rejection.

Jen:

Oh, yes, yes.

Paul:

And it breeds procrastination, right? Oh yeah. If I don't put myself out there, I can't be judged. Or if I, as bene Brown says I, I'm going to butcher this, but it's a paraphrasing of what she says. If I look perfect, act perfect and do everything perfect, then and only then am I worthy of love or approval, right? Which is garbage. It's

Jen:

Garbage.

Paul:

It's just garbage. But that's the story. I think a lot of us, not just as voice actors, as human beings tell ourselves in our heads, no,

Jen:

But let's go there for just a second. You said it again and I said it earlier, we're human beings. When I spoke in Dallas, I did a whole portion of my session on being an introvert. How many times is that used as a front for Yeah, but I'm an introvert. I'm not good at talking to people. And I always say, most introverts that I know have friends. They are married, there are introverts running major businesses. So yeah, you can, you got to be comfortable. You got to know your audience, but you can. So when you say the fear of rejection, so where I'm going with that is I have friends, you're my friend, you and I have both flubbed.

Paul:

Oh my God,

Jen:

How many times? No, don't count. Don't answer

Paul:

That today.

Jen:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Paul:

We might be near triple digits just today and in my time zone, it's only one 30.

Jen:

But it's the reminder that we're human and people do not automatically reject me when I say something dumb, when I misspeak, when I don't use proper grammar in an email. These things are little mini forms of rejection and I'm never actually rejected. People give grace. They're human. And to me, in my experience, we've talked about cold calling and I know that's not something most people even do anyway, and I know you're not a fan, but the point is, even if you were to do it, what's the worst that's going to happen? I mean, have you ever messaged someone on LinkedIn and just said, Hey, I'd like to connect. And somebody messaged back and was like, never messaged me again. You sorry son. And it's just this horrible, awful thing. No two things are going to happen. Cool. Yeah. I'll connect or nothing. If you call someone, have you ever been chewed out for asking a question? I mean, never. That has never happened to me and I'm using capital N never happened again. I think that's the other part is you make up scenarios in your head of what's going to happen. And it's not reality. It's not. It is a human on the other end of the line every time.

Paul:

I can't tell you, I was talking to somebody about this yesterday, it probably happens a couple times a month where I'll get an email from somebody who for the first time, who I've maybe marketed to and have never heard from, or I marketed to them years ago and have never heard from not a word. And they'll reach out and go, Hey Paul, I think I finally have something for you. Here's a job.

Jen:

Love it.

Paul:

Thank you. Right? Just because you're not getting an answer doesn't mean the answer is no. Oh,

Jen:

That's good. I like that.

Paul:

Yes. And that's true for auditions too. Just because you didn't get selected doesn't mean you sucked. It just means you weren't the person that was selected for that role, right? Yes. Cranston, I'm going to butcher Cranston now since I'm in paraphrase mode. Cran Cranston says you're not there to get the job. You're there to do good enough work that they take notice. He might not be the perfect guy or she might not be the perfect girl for this role, but damn, that was a good audition. We're going to end up working with that person down the road somewhere.

Jen:

And to your point, even to the Cranston, butchered, paraphrase, guys, how many times are we hearing coaches say, take a risk. Stand out. Yeah, follow the specs and follow up with something completely unexpected. And if you don't know how to do that yet,

Paul:

You will.

Jen:

You will. Maybe To me, that's why I really enjoy improv and I do encourage it. A lot of people are like, I don't see where that really comes into play. Well, what it does is brings you fully out of your comfort zone and puts you on the spot and makes you access voices and thoughts and weird movements that you're like, I would never have normally done that. That's not Jen. This is something else. But it forces you to get out of your comfort zone. And I think that's when that development happens of freedom, of risk taking, of confidence because you've done it and you're like, I know who I am over here and I can give this very conversational read. But then if I want to really blow it up, stand out. Don't worry about the job, connect with the listener or impress them. Wow them. Give them something unexpected. Yeah. That's

Paul:

When you take notice. Fantastic. And that ladies and gentlemen is how you beat ai. That's acting. That's exactly what that is. I want to wrap up with this. Yes. Because you and I have talked about this at times or talked around it privately by text sometimes in person when we get to see each other at conferences and what have you. We've talked a lot on this channel and on this podcast about the fact that there's definitely a glut of voice actors. Let me kind of flip the script on you a little bit. Do we have a glut of coaches as well?

Jen:

Oh my word. The answer. The answer.

Paul:

I know what you're, I mean, I know your general answer, but answer that for the folks listening to the podcast.

Jen:

We do. We, I am actually going to take something from Jay, Michael Collins who said that a lot of the established folks aren't coaching because they need the work, they need the money for different reasons. And what I'm finding lately is, here's the other thing, sorry. Okay, I'll get on the train of thought here for a second. Isn't it interesting when coaches

Coach on what they've learned from other coaches? I always find that really interesting. I'm very go-to the source kind of person. If I have a problem, I'm going to the ceo. I'm not doing middle management. So I kind of think it's interesting when folks start sharing wisdom, tips and trips and knowledge, and you're like, yeah, but that's so-and-so's actually tips and tricks and knowledge. And so what I think happens is it's an opportunity. People are coaching and they're learning and then they're making that their presentation. And I don't know if it's for the right reasons either. And I don't know how you as a new coach, price yourself and what your end goal is. I give JT and AB and I, we have this conversation a lot, and it's the same with you, Paul. Where we're unique is we have nothing to sell.

We don't have anything. We're not coaches. We're trying to share information. And so where I go with that is the why does everybody want to be a coach? The information is there. We have wonderful, fabulous industry coaches, and I always encourage people learn from people outside of the voiceover industry too, when it comes to different aspects of growing your business. It doesn't always have to just be the same people in the industry. But why? Because I kind of just wonder, is it just to make some money? I don't know. It's a hard conversation. Are there people who are qualified booking work? Are they qualified because they're reaching to just a different audience? I don't know.

Paul:

I don't know either. A couple things there. I think we're all products of the people that we learned from, right? Yes. So for example, in football, they talk about coaching trees. Well, these five guys, they worked under Bill Belichick and then they went on to become head coaches and damn right, well, they're reteaching stuff that they learned from the guide that they learned from. So I think there's some of that in every business, and I think a lot of it is fairly natural. Your point about why sticks with me, Simon Sinek, and I just posted this the other day, Simon Sinek famously said, people don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it. And I make a point whenever I meet with students and I talk to between two and 10 voice actors a week about the VO freedom master plan, and I apologize upfront because a large part of the conversation is about my why I got into the coaching side of this.

That's good. And I think it's hugely important because if you're going to invest your money with a coach, then you need to assess, as we said in the last week's video, you need to assess fit. And a lot of that speaks to why that coach is there, why you're there, why is that coach there? And if you can ascertain that and figure out for yourself whether that's a fit for your goals, your values, what you want to learn, how you want to learn it and all that stuff, then I think you're much better served. And that's why I say interview coaches, talk to them. One of those questions is, why are you doing this?

Jen:

I love that. Yes. Just yes, yes to all of it. The why for so many folks, especially when they've been in the business a very short period of time, many of whom have been in less than I am. I don't know the why. I really don't. And again, you can be an influencer. I use that term loosely for even newer folks and support them. But then inevitably we find information missed or maybe inaccurate information. And I also am not, let me make this very clear. I'm also not a pedestal. There's my new word

Paul:

For that. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Jen:

I'm not a pedestal. I'm also not a person that says, well, this is the one person who can teach on this topic. Exactly. I completely disagree with that. We have how many commercial voice acting coaches do we have? To your point, you do need to find who their resonates with you. Their direction resonates with you. They're the fit. I think what's really gotten big is performance coaching. So I'm going to say that because there's you doing marketing and business, and I think it's wonderful. There's not a whole lot of people that are still not jumping on that bandwagon. I like to talk about networking and I'll talk about LinkedIn, but there's many people who can talk about that. Maybe I resonate, maybe I explain it in a way that certain people understand better, but it's the performance coaching. And you know what? I think it comes down to Paul, and I don't know how we can, if this is a see a need fill, a need opportunity is people want feedback. That's what they really want. It's not that people need to keep coaching and coaching and how do I authentically read? And when we always say just be you, it's How'd this sound? How's my sound? How's my audition? How are my two takes? I think people need feedback. Coaches, not coaches, but just feedback. And I think that is really what people are thirsting for.

Paul:

I think that's the emotional need. But I do think this is a craft, and if you're not getting better, you're getting worse.

Jen:

Oh, no. I agree with that too. But I like that the emotional side. Yeah, that's a good,

Paul:

I think that's what drives a lot of it, right? I also think that for newer folks, they're looking for love in all the wrong places. They want to post their demos online and have every Joe Blow and Jane Blow give critiques and comments. And people ask me for demo critiques. I'm like, I'm a business coach, right? Yeah. Go find a good performance coach and not only get a critique of your demo, but get better. Just get better.

Jen:

Love it. And that's what we talk about with the ai. That's what all of the things is. You need to be the best version of you and bring the emotional, bring the business. It's all tied together.

Paul:

One disclaimer for the entire conversation, I have to say, Jen has not really been naked.

Jen:

Thank you.

Paul:

This is wonderful. It's always a pleasure. I call you my work wife because you're the closest thing I have in this business. You and I talk more than just about any of my voiceover friends with the possible exception of Craig Williams. Maybe he's my work brother,

Jen:

Right? He is fine. We like Craig fine.

Paul:

We love Craig. I'll tell you a quick story as it relates to you. Craig and I and you, of course, we were all at one voice Dallas, and at one point I was trying to find you, and I found Craig first and I said, Craig, maybe you know the story. I told you this story. I

Jen:

Don't know. I'm trying to

Paul:

Think where to go. Craig, have you seen Jen? And I said, it's weird because I saw her. She was the first person I saw when I was walking down the stairs. And Craig turns to me and says, Paul, Jen is the first person everyone sees when they're walking down the stairs because you have this energy right about you. And it's true. That was the best way. I think anybody's that's so funny ever described you other than a force and that you are my friend. It is a pleasure to know you. It's been a great pleasure to talk to you. My God, we've gone a while.

Jen:

We covered a lot of, we

Paul:

Covered

Jen:

A lot of ground, my friend. Yes, we did. My goodness.

Paul:

Tell us what's coming up for you in vo booth besties.

Jen:

Let's see. We continue to do our live interviews on YouTube on Thursdays. You will find Alicia and myself at VO Atlanta, so I do hope. Nice. If you're there, look at the stairs. You'll hear my voice probably before you see me. I'm very

Paul:

Lucky. In a room of over a thousand people, Jen will be the first person you see. Or here Or here.

Jen:

Yeah, or here. Yeah. I'm pretty stinking loud. No, so we're excited about that. And just like we've been talking about, I am going to be diving into my 200 page periodical of advertising opportunities locally and just doing what I do, just hustling

Paul:

And possibly coming to late night with Taylor Tomlinson. Sometimes I'm

Jen:

Working it. Don't count me out. I'm working

Paul:

It that, or wouldn't it be nice to get that call and say, you know what, guys? I'm going to have to work that in because I'm also narrating. Love it. Or list it. But I think I can squeeze you

Jen:

In. I'll squeeze it in. Who know? Jen Greenfield don't. I love the support. Everybody is so kind. Paul put a pin in it. We got to talk social media another time.

Paul:

Yeah, we do. We do. Good. God, we're at an hour already, so

Jen:

Okay, let's go.

Paul:

We'll just have to have you back. Right?

Jen:

Fine.

Paul:

Awesome. I agree. Jen, thanks so much. Always a pleasure. And we will see you vo Atlanta.

Jen:

Okay. Bye everyone.